Tax Refunds?

blackdiamondblackdiamond Posts: 2,307Member, Beta Tester
edited February 2012 in Off-Topic Chat
I'm getting really close to having my taxes finished up and it appears that we'll be getting about $2,000 back. In the past few years we have ended up owing a a few hundred dollars so this will be a nice change. We had a kid this year and my wife's income dropped by about 45% when she took a few months off and now is only working part time. These two factors are primarily responsible for us gettting a refund. I plan to use the refund to catch up some of the various savings categories that I've had to whack-a-mole from the past two months to cover a slew of rainy day expenses.

How are taxes looking for you this year?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • JenneJenne Posts: 53Member
    My taxes are terrifying. We haven't had a refund in years, and this year, DH is a contractor overseas, so it will be worse. We have to hire an accountant to make sure we do everything right. He's been self-employed in the past, so we're familiar with the self-employment tax, but this is the most he's ever made while being self-employed. I have my paycheck adjusted for the highest withholding, but even that doesn't help much against the government's self-employment punishment. At least this time YNAB is here to help!
  • WairereRoseWairereRose Posts: 5,842Member, Beta Tester
    My company made a loss last year - getting off the ground in its first year. It may do the same again this year, but I'd love to take it through to a net profit situation after my wages, that would be fantastic.

    However, because of the loss I was able to offset that against my personal income which meant I got a refund of some of the taxes paid during the year. As well, during the early part of the year I was entitled to claim for a Family Tax Credit but didn't. I figured it would be more helpful to me later on in the year when they would square it up. The loss isn't offset against the income for calculating that credit, so the credit wasn't as large as the IRD could see on their screens (but it didn't show on mine so I wasn't losing anything I knew about) but added together the two amounts came to just shy of $3000 which is perfect timing right now.
  • HouseMouseHouseMouse Posts: 28Member
    Our situation is the opposite of yours blackdiamond. Our youngest just graduated college in May and had a job lined up right away, so no more kid deductions for us. Instead of getting a $2000 refund, we'll owe somewhere around $400. I'm still waiting for all of our tax statements to come in, so this is still just an estimate. But, thanks to YNAB, the money is sitting in the bank waiting to do it's job, rather than us scrambling to come up with the money.

    What a difference one year with YNAB makes. Thanks Jesse!
  • virago317virago317 Posts: 513Member, Beta Tester
    We did OK this year -- only owe a bit more than $500 per my calculations. My husband is a freelancer, and even though he doesn't make very much, the self-employment tax penalty combined with my decent salary = big tax bite. We really suffer from the "marriage penalty" since if we weren't married he wouldn't have to pay much in taxes since he doesn't make that much. Last year we ended up owing a couple thousand since we didn't pay enough in estimated taxes and I changed jobs halfway through the year, so I feel pretty good about how we did this year. I do our taxes myself (poring over the tax booklet and researching/calculating everything carefully) since his business is very uncomplicated (no allowable business expenses and just one client) and everything else is pretty basic (no itemized deductions, no investment income, etc.).
  • blackdiamondblackdiamond Posts: 2,307Member, Beta Tester
    virago317 wrote:
    We did OK this year -- only owe a bit more than $500 per my calculations. My husband is a freelancer, and even though he doesn't make very much, the self-employment tax penalty combined with my decent salary = big tax bite. We really suffer from the "marriage penalty" since if we weren't married he wouldn't have to pay much in taxes since he doesn't make that much. Last year we ended up owing a couple thousand since we didn't pay enough in estimated taxes and I changed jobs halfway through the year, so I feel pretty good about how we did this year. I do our taxes myself (poring over the tax booklet and researching/calculating everything carefully) since his business is very uncomplicated (no allowable business expenses and just one client) and everything else is pretty basic (no itemized deductions, no investment income, etc.).

    Where do you live? The way US Taxes worked the last time I checked the tables was that you paid the same amout of tax filing as seperately vs. jointly. The difference was the joint filing allowed for a few more deductions for things like student loans. I can't imagine that filing as a single is better than married and filing seperately?
  • virago317virago317 Posts: 513Member, Beta Tester
    virago317 wrote:
    We did OK this year -- only owe a bit more than $500 per my calculations. My husband is a freelancer, and even though he doesn't make very much, the self-employment tax penalty combined with my decent salary = big tax bite. We really suffer from the "marriage penalty" since if we weren't married he wouldn't have to pay much in taxes since he doesn't make that much. Last year we ended up owing a couple thousand since we didn't pay enough in estimated taxes and I changed jobs halfway through the year, so I feel pretty good about how we did this year. I do our taxes myself (poring over the tax booklet and researching/calculating everything carefully) since his business is very uncomplicated (no allowable business expenses and just one client) and everything else is pretty basic (no itemized deductions, no investment income, etc.).

    Where do you live? The way US Taxes worked the last time I checked the tables was that you paid the same amout of tax filing as seperately vs. jointly. The difference was the joint filing allowed for a few more deductions for things like student loans. I can't imagine that filing as a single is better than married and filing seperately?
    I live in the U.S. (Indiana). I was actually thinking of running the numbers as if we were single, just for fun, so I'll do that this weekend and post back what I find. I do know that before we got married, we were still living together and I did our taxes, and it seemed like we had far fewer taxes than we do now -- but I also make more now, so who knows.
  • litterbuglitterbug Posts: 3,636Member, Beta Tester
    Every time I look at the tax tables I wonder where this marriage "penalty" is. Married couples seem to pay the same as or less than I do whether they file singly or jointly, and I don't get to claim dependents or other family-oriented credits and deductions. I also pay for my housing, food, and other essentials on my own, rather than sharing those costs with someone else, and have to pay for many things a family can provide for each other (like would someone please make me lunch once in a while? And how about doing the dishes? Or getting something from the top shelf in the kitchen?).

    OK, now I'm just getting crabby. :oops:

    I'm sure someone will prove me wrong, and I apologize if I start up a little war on the subject, but I chafe a little bit at this every year at tax time.
  • virago317virago317 Posts: 513Member, Beta Tester
    All I mean is that if we weren't married, he would only have to pay taxes on his $10k earnings (at a lower tax rate) than we do having to pay taxes on his $10k on top of my $50k+ (at my higher tax rate). Obviously there are lots of other benefits to being married and I'm not trying to downplay those... if I felt that way, we wouldn't have decided to get married even though it causes us to pay higher taxes. :)
  • WillWill Posts: 788Member, Beta Tester
    virago317 wrote:
    I live in the U.S. (Indiana).

    I'm sorry. :wink:

    Just kidding. Hoosier here now living in the Pacific NW. All of my family still lives in NW Indiana.
  • virago317virago317 Posts: 513Member, Beta Tester
    Will wrote:
    virago317 wrote:
    I live in the U.S. (Indiana).

    I'm sorry. :wink:

    Just kidding. Hoosier here now living in the Pacific NW. All of my family still lives in NW Indiana.
    LOL... I only moved here a few years ago and lived in the San Francisco Bay Area before then (California native), so please do feel sorry for me. ;) It's actually not THAT bad here, but I miss SF terribly.
  • virago317virago317 Posts: 513Member, Beta Tester
    edited January 2012
    OK, I have to eat crow -- Litterbug is right. By my calculations, we pay $744 less in taxes for 2011 being married than we would each filing as single. I made some assumptions (I get our savings interest, he still gets the $2500 we put in his Roth IRA; my pre-tax deductions would be lower so I'd actually have a slightly higher taxable income and higher tax debt, but I won't bother trying to account for that). The retirement savings credit he gets for the Roth IRA investment wipes out his $51 tax liability (on $10k of taxable self-employment earnings), so he would just owe a total of $1044 in self-employment tax (he would get a small EIC). I would owe $6431. Our total tax owed would be $7475.

    Married, we don't get the retirement savings credit or EIC, but the larger standard deduction and exemption more than make up for those. His SE tax goes up to $1322, but we only have to pay a total of $6731. We're childless by choice, so we'll never benefit from that kind of tax advantage, but it's a small price to pay in my opinion. :) I'd get to file a 1040EZ if we were single (he always has to do a 1040), but I'd have to file both of our taxes anyway, so that's a small benefit too.

    I won't bother running it as married filing separately since obviously that would be even worse -- would wipe out the small savings from his tax credits as a single filer. Thanks for getting me to see the error in my thinking! :)
    Post edited by virago317 on
  • virago317virago317 Posts: 513Member, Beta Tester
    AND, my husband reminded me that the tax advantage was one of the key reasons why we decided to get married in the first place... how quickly we forget. :lol:
  • litterbuglitterbug Posts: 3,636Member, Beta Tester
    Don't eat crow, virago, I'm sure it tastes nasty! There's so much political talk about the marriage penalty that I think we all just take for granted that it's true. I guess we don't tend to think about the fact that even though both incomes in a family flow into a family's budget (at least where the couple blends their finances), they'd be taxed at a lower rate if they were single, even though if I had two jobs paying the same amounts I pay at a higher rate because all of my income is taxed together.

    Or something like that. There may well be situations where a married couple pays more than I do for some reason, but when I pay more tax even with large medical deductions and charitable donations, I tend to make an equally speculative assumption when I looked at the tax tables.

    I guess it's just one of those hot-button 'don't get me started' issues. :shock: I usually try to avoid being controversial, so I'm glad I didn't get jumped on, because I don't mean to offend.
  • LunaLuna Posts: 2,152Member, Beta Tester
    Litterbug provided me with another YNAB Ah-Ha moment in her journal. She said that she has learned to treat all incoming funds as Income, as opposed to thinking of "extra" money as a Windfall. So, if I get a tax refund this year, I will treat it as Income and either use it for my Rainy Day categories or pay a big chunk to my debt, which would be awesome. Now let's hope I get some back...even though I really try to make it even every year.
  • jessiebirdjessiebird Posts: 3,331Member, Beta Tester
    Every time I look at the tax tables I wonder where this marriage "penalty" is.

    I never get that either. However, I know a couple that live together who are engaged but who won't get married because the female (a small business owner) said her accountant said it will hurt them tax-wise. I had to ask her how much it would set her back. I mean, if it's $500 a year, is that a good enough reason not to get married? $2,000? $10,000? What's the cutoff?

    I can't remember if she told me what the estimated amount was, but I realize that she is a far better businesswoman than me; I would still get married regardless of the money.
  • caligulalacaligulala Posts: 1,549Member, Beta Tester
    The "marriage penalty" everyone talks about can happen if joint income pushes a couple into the higher tax bracket. So if filing separately each person was in the 15% bracket, but filing jointly they are in the 20% tax bracket, they'll pay higher taxes. But I think that is very rare.

    But! For most couples, this is only a consideration if one spouse hasn't been working at all. So stay at home parents returning to the workforce should consider whether their new salary will bump them out of their current tax bracket, forcing them to pay a higher rate on the increase in income. You only pay the higher tax rate on the amount of income that exceeds the cap for the previous tax rate, so it shouldn't be a HUGE difference in the tax paid. But if you include the other costs of returning to work (child care, etc) it could be enough to persuade you that going back to work isn't worth it.
  • litterbuglitterbug Posts: 3,636Member, Beta Tester
    Thanks for the explanation! But a dual-income couple still has the option of filing separately and avoiding the higher tax rate, right? It would mean that only one would be able to take deductions for dependents, if any, but I'd think that would at least partly offset the increase in income.

    Trust me, although I'm fine with paying taxes, I don't want other people to suffer from excessive tax burden (and by "people" I mean individuals, not businesses, because that's a whole other discussion).
  • blackdiamondblackdiamond Posts: 2,307Member, Beta Tester
    litterbug - the tax tables come out to exactly the same when comparing married filing jointly with married filing seperately (at least it did the last time that I checked). The reason that the tables are different is because the individual taxes have to be taxed higher per dollar when filing jointly because the combined income effectively moved the 2nd income way up the tax brackets. For example:

    Income 1 is $10,000
    Income 2 is $20,000
    Combined is $30,000

    If the tax brackes for filing jointly are 5% for $0-10,000, 10% for $10,001-20,000 and 15% for 20,001-30,000, the combined total tax would be the following:

    10,000 x 0.05 + 10,000 x 0.10 = 10,000 x .15 = $3,000

    If you filed seperately the taxes using the same tax brackets would be the following:

    10,000 x 0.05 = $500
    10,000 x 0.05 + 10,000 x .1 = $1,500
    Total = $2,000

    This would come out to $1,000 less than filing jointly so the tax tables for filing seperately are modified so that the final tax liability comes out to the same. I believe that the tax % stays the same and the high end of the income level for each bracket goes down.

    Make sense?
  • C_AndersonC_Anderson Posts: 190Member
    Ahh, taxes. Ever since getting married, my husband and I are still trying to get our withholdings right so we don't end up with a refund.

    2009: We married in June, so were able to file as "married filing jointly". I had donated two cars that year, we were tithing 10% of our net income, and we were both working. Even with the donation of two cars and tithing, we still had to take the standard deduction. I believe that year was the most "normal".

    2010: Filed as "married filing jointly". I sustained an on-the-job injury in January, putting me out of work. At first, the school district continued to pay me because they always pay about 1.5 months behind. They had an insurance company that paid a portion of my lost wages. It wasn't the government's "disability" whatever, but my income was not taxable. I hoped to make it back to work, but it never happened. We continued to tithe and contributed to another nonprofit, so our tax liability decreased. In addition to that, part of my husband's income was not taxable It is considered per diem, which is supposed to be like a reimbursement for expenses incurred while traveling on the job. Since we're pretty conservative spenders, we were able to take home $10k tax-free, which we also tithed on. As a result, the husband's withholdings were too high and we received a bigger refund.

    2011: Filed as "married filing jointly". We bought a house in June, so suddenly, we could deduct mortgage interest paid. That, in combination with our tithing, on taxable income and non-taxable income allowed us to itemize for the first time. We ended up with a $3500 refund, which is WAY TOO MUCH! At least it jump-started our baby fund, which will come in handy between now and June when we set up the nursery.

    2012: Our tax situation will change again, when we add a baby to the family. Everything else should remain about like it was in 2011 (we hope).

    Our goal is to come out receiving or owing less than $100 by the end of the year. We keep playing with the IRS's withholding calculator to try to figure out how to adjust the W-4, but the tables must be off. I'm sure having some tax-free income (per diem) skews things, but really. Why is it so hard to get this right? Can't we just go to a fair tax, flat tax, or even just a sales tax??? It would make things so much simpler. :)

    ~Christina
  • blackdiamondblackdiamond Posts: 2,307Member, Beta Tester
    I think you're trying too hard to get it perfect. Your times worth something too! I wouldn't get too excited about the changes from adding a kid, I did that this year and I don't think it really made a significant difference for us. Our big refund was the result of my wife cutting back to part time and taking a few months off. Personally, I would rather have a $1,000 refund than have to pay anything. This year's refund was a bit higher than I would like, but I did enjoy budgeting it yesterday when it arrived.
  • Turf_HackerTurf_Hacker Posts: 5,260Member, Moderator, YNAB Team, Beta Tester
    I would rather pay a small amount that I've been saving up for throughout the year... :D
  • dpandslemmendpandslemmen Posts: 194Member
    C_Anderson wrote:
    Ahh, taxes. Ever since getting married, my husband and I are still trying to get our withholdings right so we don't end up with a refund.

    2009: We married in June, so were able to file as "married filing jointly". I had donated two cars that year, we were tithing 10% of our net income, and we were both working. Even with the donation of two cars and tithing, we still had to take the standard deduction. I believe that year was the most "normal".

    2010: Filed as "married filing jointly". I sustained an on-the-job injury in January, putting me out of work. At first, the school district continued to pay me because they always pay about 1.5 months behind. They had an insurance company that paid a portion of my lost wages. It wasn't the government's "disability" whatever, but my income was not taxable. I hoped to make it back to work, but it never happened. We continued to tithe and contributed to another nonprofit, so our tax liability decreased. In addition to that, part of my husband's income was not taxable It is considered per diem, which is supposed to be like a reimbursement for expenses incurred while traveling on the job. Since we're pretty conservative spenders, we were able to take home $10k tax-free, which we also tithed on. As a result, the husband's withholdings were too high and we received a bigger refund.

    2011: Filed as "married filing jointly". We bought a house in June, so suddenly, we could deduct mortgage interest paid. That, in combination with our tithing, on taxable income and non-taxable income allowed us to itemize for the first time. We ended up with a $3500 refund, which is WAY TOO MUCH! At least it jump-started our baby fund, which will come in handy between now and June when we set up the nursery.

    2012: Our tax situation will change again, when we add a baby to the family. Everything else should remain about like it was in 2011 (we hope).

    Our goal is to come out receiving or owing less than $100 by the end of the year. We keep playing with the IRS's withholding calculator to try to figure out how to adjust the W-4, but the tables must be off. I'm sure having some tax-free income (per diem) skews things, but really. Why is it so hard to get this right? Can't we just go to a fair tax, flat tax, or even just a sales tax??? It would make things so much simpler. :)

    ~Christina

    I try every year to get a $1,000 refund from the Feds and $500 from the State. This year (2011) thanks for all the adjusting they did to the withholding tables because of the "Make Work Pay Credit" (from 2010) I had to pay in $323 dollars to the Feds and we are receiving back $435.00 from the State. So we changed our Federal withholding rates to take out more. With all of the political stuff they are doing with the withholding rates I try to aim for $1,000 refund, that way I hope to never have to write a physical check to the "Internal Revenue Service". So far I have only had to do it twice.
  • C_AndersonC_Anderson Posts: 190Member
    In WA we don't have a state income tax, so we just have to worry about federal income taxes and local sales taxes. We'd rather try to get the amount withheld as close as possible to the actual amount due--even if that means we owe a (very) small amount in the end. I feel like we can put our money to better use throughout the year vs. letting the government keep it like a zero-interest savings account, only to give back the money that was rightfully ours all along. It's worth a little effort.

    It will be nice when someone figures out how to overhaul the tax system in the USA. :)
  • ginwooginwoo Posts: 360Member
    Getting the withholding right is a big bone of contention between DH and me..I believe in trying to get withholding so that you're within $500 +/-. I would much rather have that money throughout the year to put towards financial goals...

    But NO.. DH wants to make sure we withhold to the tune of $5000 (on average) refund... This all started when we had a AMT scare one year and it looked like we were going to have to come up with an additional $4000. But Congress voted the adjustment and we were not impacted. But he feels we need to be ready just in case it happened again. I don't see that as likely since at the time we had a good income but no deductions (other than standard) and I got a HUGE bonus that year on top of my salary (not the norm).

    We have since bought a house and I am not getting any kind of bonus like that year again but he refuses to adjust withholding... Drives me crazy!

    The only good thing is that we have been using the refunds to do home improvement projects and since we get the lump sum can do a couple of little projects at once.

    I still go "AUUUUUUGGGGHHHH" :x when I think about it.
  • jessiebirdjessiebird Posts: 3,331Member, Beta Tester
    The only good thing is that we have been using the refunds to do home improvement projects and since we get the lump sum can do a couple of little projects at once.

    My husband is self-employed and is the primary breadwinner, so we don't see refunds very often (or for very much, even then). I keep hearing about how financially unwise it is to get a big refund, but I also hear from people that they like getting a big check every year. I can imagine.

    But I was thinking about my nephew, who got about $3,500 back this year. That's like $300 a month he's paying in extra! That's a lot of money on his income, which is probably about $30,000.

    For someone who doesn't manage money well, I can see the appeal of getting a big refund. But for someone who has a budget (or YNAB....) it would be nice to put the same amount aside every month. It would still be there in case of an IRS surprise, or a person could use it for projects after taxes were done and it turned out to be extra.... Or a person could pay down a nice chunk of debt (if they were unfortunate enough to be saddled with any) with that kind of money in the budget every month.

    I don't think much of the concept of "you're giving the IRS an interest-free loan" when you get a big refund because, let's be honest, interest rates on savings account stink right now; for many people, over-withholding is like a nifty forced-savings plan that works for them. But it's not the only way to handle money, especially if it amounts to hundreds of dollars every month that could be put to better use, provided the person knows not to squander that money.

    I wish we had the problem of getting a refund. Not gonna happen in my world!
  • Turf_HackerTurf_Hacker Posts: 5,260Member, Moderator, YNAB Team, Beta Tester
    jessiebird wrote:
    The only good thing is that we have been using the refunds to do home improvement projects and since we get the lump sum can do a couple of little projects at once.

    My husband is self-employed and is the primary breadwinner, so we don't see refunds very often (or for very much, even then). I keep hearing about how financially unwise it is to get a big refund, but I also hear from people that they like getting a big check every year. I can imagine.

    But I was thinking about my nephew, who got about $3,500 back this year. That's like $300 a month he's paying in extra! That's a lot of money on his income, which is probably about $30,000.

    For someone who doesn't manage money well, I can see the appeal of getting a big refund. But for someone who has a budget (or YNAB....) it would be nice to put the same amount aside every month. It would still be there in case of an IRS surprise, or a person could use it for projects after taxes were done and it turned out to be extra.... Or a person could pay down a nice chunk of debt (if they were unfortunate enough to be saddled with any) with that kind of money in the budget every month.

    I don't think much of the concept of "you're giving the IRS an interest-free loan" when you get a big refund because, let's be honest, interest rates on savings account stink right now; for many people, over-withholding is like a nifty forced-savings plan that works for them. But it's not the only way to handle money, especially if it amounts to hundreds of dollars every month that could be put to better use, provided the person knows not to squander that money.

    I wish we had the problem of getting a refund. Not gonna happen in my world!

    For somebody that doesn't manage their money well month-to-month, they're not very likely to wisely manage this sudden lump sum every year. Speaking from personal experience (before I started budgeting), I can say that these lump sum amounts are usually squandered.

    While interest rates do stink, a small amount of interest is better than none. It also keeps you out of the position of not getting your money in a timely manner due to IRS delays. The same can apply even more with states. How many times has California (not picking on California, they're not the only state to do this!!) announced intentional delays in sending out income tax refunds due to budget shortfalls? I would rather hold onto the money and send it in when the time comes than to wait for the tax agency to get around to sending me my money...
  • KronegKroneg Posts: 130Member
    edited February 2012
    Some of us get big refunds whether we like it or not. Not bragging here, but in my specific case our Fed refund was $2600. Almost all of that was due to the Child Tax Credit and Earned Income Credit - my withholding is currently running about $26/month (about $300/year). I could change my withholdings some more to get that $500 over the year, but you can fiddle with your withholdings all you want - the IRS will not pre-pay you those Credits. It's just a byproduct of our screwy tax laws.

    That said, I rather like the big chunk-o-cash every February. Even if I could get the $2600 ahead of time, at 1% interest (what you can get in Savings accounts - at best), that's $26 I'm missing out on. However, by NOT having that money in the budget, I save way more than $26 by not spending it. Essentially what would happen is I'd see $200/month extra income - some/most of it would go to fund rainy-day or other savings categories, but I'm certain a chunk of it would be to "discretionary" spending. By simply not having it, I save money that would get blown on stuff I don't really need.

    To Turf_Hacker's point - yeah, if you're not a good saver, you're probably not a good spender either. So many times I've seen folks get a huge refund, then go buy an ATV or big-screen TV, then wonder why they can't make the car payment. Oh well - that's not a problem for YNABers. :o
    Post edited by Kroneg on
  • ginwooginwoo Posts: 360Member
    [/quote]
    While interest rates do stink, a small amount of interest is better than none. It also keeps you out of the position of not getting your money in a timely manner due to IRS delays. The same can apply even more with states. How many times has California (not picking on California, they're not the only state to do this!!) announced intentional delays in sending out income tax refunds due to budget shortfalls? I would rather hold onto the money and send it in when the time comes than to wait for the tax agency to get around to sending me my money...[/quote]

    Amen to that! Maybe I'll get DH on the YNAB bandwagon (so close!) and we can stop this ridiculous practice.. Thanks to TurboTax, I was able to see what our average tax was for the last 5 years and which included some up and down years income wise and I have a pretty good idea of what we should be withholding... DH is looking for a new job so when he gets it will be the perfect opening for renegotiating withholdings...
  • WairereRoseWairereRose Posts: 5,842Member, Beta Tester
    We don't have the option to adjust withholdings here, we use different tax codes for different employers which is supposed to adjust the amount of tax paid to the right amount and it's generally pretty close. For me the current situation is that I am running a business (supporting it as it gets off the ground) and the losses it makes are deducted from my taxable income so that ultimately until the business hits a profit situation (hopefully next year) I will get a refund of taxes paid due to the gross income being reduced by the loss.

    For people with only earnings from an employer the taxes are generally pretty much spot on and no adjustment is required, but sometimes there is a small refund of a couple of hundred. There are little tax booths in the malls where they will do a quick calculation and see if you get anything like that back, and they charge about $50 for the service - unless you get nothing back and then it's free.
  • ginwooginwoo Posts: 360Member
    Rose,
    I am an avid believer in a flat income tax... Sounds like you're close to that in NZ.. One more reason I'd love to live there... I am hopeful that we will move into that direction here. I personally propose an 18% flat corporate/personal income tax.. No deductions.. Employers just take out or if self-employed send it to IRS and you're done!
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